Ep. 122 - Lisa Jacobs
This week on the Creative Waffle podcast, I chat with designer Lisa Jacobs. We talk design agency life, graphic design portfolio tips, how to get hired by a studio, how agencies get clients and more. Lisa also shares her advice for young designers wanting to get into an agency. Hope you enjoy the show.
Find Lisa here:
Full Episode - Audio Only
5 Bullet Breakdown
1. 06:40 - Portfolio advice -
I always work in the in the same structure when explaining things. The same way in every single project.
Have a summary of what the company is about. What makes them unique.
A little bit more insight about the project itself and then the objective and the solution. State the problem and how you solved it.
Really put the full whack in there, how you did it, including the sketches. So I try to compliment the text with parts of the sketches or a before and after.
It’s also good to show alternatives too, ones that didn’t make the cut. Show pictures of where it’s being used or mockups too.
2. 10:44 “For me every decision that you make in a design should have a good reason, like an actual concept behind it.
Why you did it, why something is different colour, why something has rounded corners or sharp edges. Those type of things, and if your projects are water tight in that way, then there's nothing that can go wrong in the interview.
They will really really admire that if you can explain those decisions. I think what makes a good designer.”
3. 16:10 But it’s also good, I think, especially if you've just graduated or just starting in design and you build a portfolio. Just apply for things even if you're not willing to take the job.
Just so that you can see how people are going to respond to your work when you send it out. You’ll get some great feedback and tips on what to learn and build on for your next interview.
4. 36:49 I noticed that for social media It's really hard for people to get started especially girls in design. They feel less comfortable to start posting because they feel judged, but it's fine to feel judged, It's what you learn from it’s the whole reason why you should be posting these things and what you post doesn't have to be perfect yet. It can still be a work in progress. Just get your get your shit out there. I believe in that.
5. 38:53 Best advice - I think one big one is to get your things out there. It' is really important. I think that I wouldn't be sitting here working at that agency or doing what I do, if I didn’t put my stuff out there.
So I think that that is really important. But mostly, which I think unfortunately is still done too much, is that when you're designing to not look at the concept or the result as if it’s looking cool enough, but also why you're doing it.
Clip of the week
Mentioned on the episode
Fugstrator, Michael Fugoso
Lisa Jacobs Instagram:
Full Video Version
Catch the video version of the show on YouTube. https://youtu.be/7t1GLpigeoI
Full Episode Transcript
ep. 122 Lisa Jacobs
[00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another episode of the creative waffle podcast. Today you’ll be listening to myself Mark Hirons and Lisa Jacobs from the Netherlands. On the show today we talk all about design agencies, how you can get hired, Lisa gives great portfolio advice plus tips tricks and insights into how an agency works and what it's like to work in one.
[00:00:45] So without further ado, let's get into the podcast, welcome back to the podcast.
Hey, how are you?
Doing well, so can we talk today, about agencies? Social media, portfolios, advice for young people and why you went into an agency.
[00:01:06] So right now I'm working at the agency, since March which is doing pretty good. The reason that I went into an agency was to gain more experience, more in the commercial way. How to gain clients and how to deal with clients. I really how to think in a more commercial way about your designs and just gaining more experience in all kinds of design and different kinds of clients.
[00:01:37] And that is going pretty, well the very busy time of the year right now because, you know everybody needs their Christmas marketing out there, and there are a lot of bigger companies that are like. Oh wait, we have a ton of marketing budget left for this year.
[00:01:56] Let's get all kinds of stuff that we really don't need but otherwise they will they will sharpen it on our budget next year. So that's a lot of the kind of projects that you get at the end of the year, but eventually it's always a challenge to get something nice out of there. Sometimes it's a money to do rebrand or something for their website or a crazy Christmas card or a campaign or you know anything. Yeah, I think that they they are pretty open for for other ideas as well.
So how did you say that you’ve been at the agency? Sorry I missed it.
Since March this year, so it's almost almost a year now. I'm thinking about it more and more lately - more freelancing or maybe ever if I ever go full time into freelance, but I feel I can learn so much more before fully committing to that.
[00:03:21] But, in a way that I can really be unique in my in my field when I do that. So I try to kind of pick everyone's brain as much as I can before making a decision like that, but like we talked about before I am right now into a position where I want to put myself out there professionally, so I can slowly start doing that.
[00:03:49] So yeah, so it's the freelance stuff that you've planned on doing more on the side, lot of stuff going on. So how do you think the agency stuff has helped? What has been your biggest takeaway?
[00:04:00] I think, one thing that I learned so much about, other than you know, just design stuff was how to gain clients how people actually get big projects into the agency, how they talk to customers, how to do all these kinds of things and then also to initiate things. Of course, you should always come up with new ideas or your clients, but think very critical about what they asked from you in a way, to kind of learn to think that way.
[00:04:40] I think it's more of a mindset that I'm learning, rather than a skill. I guess you could say. Yeah, and as it comes with just being in the agency, just being around people that have learnt already and just they are more experienced people.
How'd you get the job and what did you put your portfolio?
[00:05:00] Actually they had a vacancy. They had that online and so I didn't actually have a decent portfolio at the time so what I did was I just wrapped up something very quickly in design and sent that over, but in all fairness the way that I constructed it was shit, like honestly, but it was more that I tried to highlight my work with a lot of visuals and a lot of how I designed everything, the process towards it. Which eventually is something that they really appreciated.
So really show them the way that you think about how you go into a project. So that they understand the way that you handle things, right?
[00:06:00] Yeah, eventually I got invited for talk for an interview and I remember actually the first thing that the guy that was interviewing me. I walked into the into the office and the first thing he asked me was my Instagram strategy, because he was searching me online and he found my Instagram and he was like, what is your strategy.
[00:06:23] They liked that I was doing a lot about personal branding online as well. So I think that is always a good thing to take into account when you're searching for a job.
So if someone's looking for that first agency job, what sort of stuff should you put into a portfolio?
Well, I think it's funny you ask because like I said right now I'm doing that process all over again.
[00:07:02] So the things that I've learned during the last year. I'm putting that into a new portfolio and the thing that I learned from that, I'm doing differently right now. One thing is that I always work in the in the same structure to explain things over every single project.
[00:07:26] So I have a summary of what this what this company is about. What makes them unique. A little bit more insight about the project itself and then the objective and the solution. So really stating the problem and how you solved it. Then not just putting your logo design or your business card design and everything out there but really the full whack on how you did it , including the sketches and pictures of where it’s being used so that they actually know what's real and not just that case study.
But I also use case studies and my portfolio so I think it's nice to have a big variety of things that you do, because personally, I'm also now working with web design and tons of things.
[00:08:25] So you also have a priority on what you can do, show everything.
We talked about it before on social media, on Instagram, but showing a process- that does really well on social media. Everyone likes to see that process.
[00:08:45] How you laying it out and how are you showing all the sketches in the whole process?
Yeah, so it's basically like how I do it on my Instagram feed, but since I usually use video on my Instagram feed and I don't have that. So I try to compliment the text with parts of the sketches or a before and after.
And then maybe also some other sketches that I tried as alternatives.
So how what goes through your mind in the meeting? When they’re asking about the project, do get nervous at all?
[00:09:27] Any interview tips or any advice you give people.
I don’t get nervous, I think because I get a lot of feedback from my interviews, how I answered my questions and all those things.
The thing is that especially when you're going into an agency and you're starting graphic design, they will be able to see things in your portfolio, and you can’t try to pull them.
[00:10:00] What I usually do, is use mock-ups in my portfolio to kind of explain if certain concept was actually produced, how it would look, but they can see right through that. They know it's a mock-up. They know it's not actually produced. So they're going to start asking questions about this project. So just be blatantly honest and tell them why you decided to visualise it the way that you did.
They will know if you're trying to fool them in any way, especially if you're working with people that already have 10 years of experience.
[00:10:44] They can see right through you so just be blatantly honest and tell them that they are visions and how you see design? I think that is the main thing. For me every decision that you make in a design should have a good reason like an actual concept behind it. Why you did it why something is different colour why something has rounded corners or sharp edges. Those type of things, and if your product projects are water tight in that way then there's nothing that can go wrong.
They will really really admire that, you can explain those decisions. I think what makes a good designer.
How long should a book for every roughly how many projects should you include?
[00:11:33] Around five or six. I wouldn't usually put in any more. I think the advantage of the position I'm in, is that I have a ton of stuff that I'm going to put on Instagram and on Dribble. So I really just pick the best ones out of there. I put that on my website or my online portfolio and from within those platforms…
[00:12:01] I can send people to the other platforms where they can see more they're interested. But really take the best stuff that you have ever made and just put that into your portfolio.
Nice. Yeah, what's your thoughts on the agencies at the moment? And do you recommend people go and work in one before they go freelance?
[00:12:18] I think there's a big difference. It really depends on where you're at. Something that I really noticed over the past year, is that the way that things are designed in the Netherlands are very different to somewhere else. I think I actually talked about this at the big branding event in Amsterdam last year, where they discuss that social proof is actually the most important aspect of a good design, rather than customer experience.
[00:12:53] Whereas in America or England or wherever that's usually the other way around. I think our agencies are a lot more focused on giving practical solutions to their clients. Instead of really building on customer experience, so that way your role as a designer within the agency can be really different, compared to what you'd expect.
But as far as it goes for freelancing, I think the knowledge that I've gained over the past year comparing two when I started there is tremendous and I wouldn't change it for the world. There's some people that go freelancing immediately and they nail it, and they're they're awesome at it.
Go for it if you feel like that's what you should do, but for me personally, it works better to do it this way.
[00:13:51] It's really depends, I think on your knowledge and where you want to go. I think for designers that go freelancing, usually it's good. If you are very specified in your own style and you have your own thing.
[00:14:11] When you're going to an agency they usually ask for more of a common thing, you know what I mean?
Yeah, they want people to be flexible and do more then one thing. They want you to be able to design a lot of things.
Yeah, because usually when you're going freelancing it's easy to get clients that come to you, because they know exactly what they're going to get from you. You have a style.
[00:14:35] So that is why people are probably like Fugstrator, the illustrator. He’s going to get a lot of clients that know exactly what they're going to get, because he has a very specific style. That goes for a lot of graphic designers on Instagram as well.
[00:14:53] Absolutely. Yeah. And do you think that the building up of your Instagram page helped you get the job?
Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because it shows a certain boldness as well as the personal branding. You get a sense of marketing in a way. I think what they also told me is that you really get the feeling that it's not just that I do this out of profession, but that it is really my passion. That I'm doing this in my spare time, which is why they were more eager to hire someone like that.
That's cool. Yeah. So what about other agencies. Did you look at any other agencies or was this your first pick?
[00:15:39] No, I actually had an interview with someone else that was more of a design agency. Right now, I’m at more of a marketing agency, but they weren't able to offer me a full-time job. It was only part-time, and I had a few other applications open, but they were on the other side of the country because there isn’t a lot of agencies where I live. So eventually that didn't really work because I decided that I didn't want to move just yet.
[00:16:10] But it’s also good, I think, especially if you've just graduated or just starting in design and you build a portfolio just apply for things even if you're not willing to take the job.
Just so that you can see how people are going to respond to your work when you send it out. I think that was a really interesting experiment that I did back then.
Did you get some good feedback?
Yeah, because they tell you, when you get rejected, they tell you why. For example, I was rejected at another agency because they wanted someone with more packaging design experience, which I didn't have so I started to really read into that. Then someone else they wanted maybe to have someone that is also working with motion design.
[00:17:14] So these different things you can use in your next interview. Like hey, I know I know some basic knowledge about all these things so I can help you guys with that, besides the fact that I’m a professional graphic designer. That's always a plus I think going to an agency.
[00:17:36] So when we last talked to you you were just about to go into the agency, I think, so what where you doing before that.
I was doing a combination of freelancing and I was a graphic designer at a startup accelerator. So yeah, it was more of a desktop publishing job because I was mostly making stuff and their visual identity, which is one of the reasons why I left because I wanted to be more challenged.
[00:18:11] That was I think the first job that I had since I graduated college.
So what was the reason you went to an agency rather than saying, okay now it's time to go freelance?
At the time, I was really doubting between two. So I kind of made a pact with myself, like an ultimatum with myself. Either I was going to find a job within a month or six or I was going to try to build out that on that freelancing job and it turned out that the first one was the case. So that's what I've been doing right now, I think that's been a good decision.
[00:19:00] Sometimes I think that it would have been easier, the working hours, the stress or whatever would have been easier if I was a freelancer, but I wouldn't change it for now, at least.
Yeah, I mean, you’ve got the experience now, I think that's the main thing that a lot of people miss out on and I've sort of missed out on. Learning off of other people, just being next to the guy who has had 10 more years experience. They can just look at your screen and say ‘okay this should be better this way’, and just giving you advice all the time is very handy. I had a taste of that but for six months when I was working in an internship, but yeah after that. I sort of tried to go on my own.
[00:19:43] So yeah, basically it's good, but I think, like you say comes down to self-awareness. If you feel that you're ready enough for it or you feel that you don't really want to work at a job 9-5, or whatever hours it is and sit there doing the same thing each day. That's that's totally up to you. I think it comes down to that self-awareness.
[00:20:02] So going back to what we were saying earlier on… How does the agency get work in?
So right now that agency that I work at, they have already existed for 25 years, so they have a pretty big client base already.
[00:20:21] But sometimes it's just people talking to each other, recommending us. Sometimes for example, we had account managers that get the client in. I remember one time co-workers doing that. He got a connection on LinkedIn but never a message, and then what he automatically does when that happens, is that he sends a message like ‘hey, I saw that you looked at my profile or you connected me. Maybe you want to have a drink sometime, see if we can help each other out with anything’ and out of that, a huge project eventually came into our agency, so it can be really that simple eventually.
[00:21:15] It's really the little things of connecting, and we also do a lot of pitches for those. Mostly for bigger companies and bigger projects. So they ask us to pitch and then we have a week to build a concept around a certain problem. We pitch that and then we either get the project or we don’t and we move on to the next one.
[00:21:39] So with the pitching how does that work?
Well, there are different kinds of pitches. Sometimes we have to brainstorm against other agencies in a room and then see who comes with the best ideas, that's very unusual but that's what sometimes happens.
[00:22:06] But usually, they present us with the problem and then we build our solution around it. So that can be a new brand, that can be campaign, that can be a website anything like that. So we build ourselves a presentation with all of the new visuals that we want to incorporate. This gives them an idea of what the solution would look like.
[00:22:44] This shows what the plan is, also a plan of how we would execute that if we got the job. There’s also the time scale in there.
Do you think that works for freelancers as well? or it mainly just an agency thing?
It depends I think on how big project is, because if you're doing a branding project for example you already laying everything out.
[00:23:13] If you're going to pitch it, but you're doing a bigger project for example a campaign, you're thinking of a campaign that you want to execute then doing a pitch. That is always going to help I think for bigger projects because you don't have to execute everything while still getting feedback from your potential client.
[00:23:39] It’s really your opportunity to show how much initiative you have and how far you go.
Is it is there anything you struggle with at the agency?
For me personally, it's the time. The time span, it's a commercial company you can’t spend tons of hours on a logo or brand. If it's just not working and you're spending hours on it, that can be very frustrating because eventually after so many hours your company is going to not make any profit on it, so that can be very frustrating. It's like creativity under pressure, but eventually it's also good when you're going freelancing because you learned to come up with good ideas and executions before spending tons of time on it. I think that that's a pretty good thing to learn.
So it's sped up your process and your thinking process? Made you bit quicker?
Exactly, to come up with different concepts easier.
Was there anytime where they’ve really put you under too much pressure and then you can't come up with any ideas? or has any bad stories of when the client has not liked it.
[00:25:26] Well, it's very like our clients are very very different from each other. Of course, we have days that you're just more in a production mode than really creative mode. You're always going to have that an agency, but overall, once I had a project that was just so hard that I couldn't do anything, but then it's no you have to own up to it and then just ask your co-workers or other graphic designers for help in a way.
[00:26:00] That's what I did, because I was working on this project for so long that I didn't have a fresh take on it anymore. That's when you really need some insight outwards and I think that a lot of designers find it a little bit hard to ask that because you feel like you fail, but I think it's a very important thing to learn to do.
[00:26:25] Do you find that they're quite willing to take it on as well? Do they get worried about their own work or maybe your work switch. How does that work? Do you just switch work or you do their work for a bit?
Usually when I ask for somebody else to take on a little bit of my work because it was somewhat, you know, I wasn't figuring it out, we just switched some projects but. I think at the agency where I work, it's really more of a family kind of vibe, if one person is screwed and has to stay until late night to fix stuff, then were all staying late to fix stuff.
[00:27:05] That's just how we do it, without asking. It is really cool that we're all that close and nobody's blaming anyone when that happens. That's just that's just how we do it. I think that's really nice. That's how it should be.
Yeah, that's good culture. How does that morale help but with workflow? anything that's really happened when shit hits the fan?
[00:27:40] Every once in awhile shit's gonna hit the fan. that's because you're still working with a high time pressure sometimes and especially now with Christmas you notice it because the clients are like ‘I want this and I want it now’. But that's that you know, you do learn how to deal with stress in an agency.
[00:28:08] I mean any graphic designer probably but yeah, I mean, it's eventually you know, it's fine. I mean everybody's gonna freak out a little bit once in a while, but I think if it's really going to take over the rest of the company that negative vibe then there are some bigger issues.
[00:28:29] Yeah, so how big is agency?
I think right now we work with about 18 or 19.
That's cool that they’ve got that family feel with so many people. I guess it can be quite hard to keep that.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean there’s people coming and going but there's a steady group that has been there for about, I think it's run six people that has been there from the beginning onwards, so about twenty years.
So you really have that big mixture of the [00:29:00] older expert kind of generation and the younger people coming in, so that really also brings in very interesting conversations when we're talking about a project and how we're going to handle it.
Is there any interesting conversations outside of design as well.
[00:29:17] There must be some funny stuff that's been said or or some some rude jokes or anything.
Yeah, on the graphic Department. I work with a guy that's in his 40s and a guy who's in his late 20s. So there's a pretty big age gap between all of us. So on one way we can relate to each other because we have the exact same sense of humour. But when it comes to branding from the old days or graphic design from the old days.
[00:29:53] Then we have literally no idea because the guy throws in his forties, he talks about how like a an advertising or a magazine is executed. Maybe 20 years ago. that they had to go to a guy about a lithograph. Yeah, like all that kind of stuff and then going to the printing company late at night like that.
[00:30:25] We have absolutely no idea how that one went on in the day. It's too much of a hassle. No, I don't want to do it anymore.
Yeah, I mean you gotta scan things in print them and cut them out. I've seen Anthony Burrill who does similar things now, he continue that process in some sense and uses a photocopier to actually make the posters.
[00:30:56] So that's what they used to in the old days used to have lines of text and then layer them up, track them by hand and then scanning with a sheet of plastic over the top. Photograph the whole thing together. It's crazy crazy long process, and logos would be drawn up massive as well, like meters sizes so they can be scaled.
[00:31:18] That's just crazy.
Yeah, exactly and now like I remember like. Because then my coworker is used to still to Quark express and CS6 Adobe and all that stuff. So right now what he's saying is like yeah these designers, you know, real designers. They don't need all these tricks and Adobe and whatever… he's he loves them.
[00:31:43] But he's like, you know, real designers don't need all those tricks and I'm like well, but I love them. So let me use them, please. I can’t without them, you know, so that's I think that is that's rather funny. Yeah our different takes on graphic design in general.
So with yourself moving forward, what's your plan of action for freelancing and how you're going to juggle that with the agency work?
[00:32:11] Currently, I almost have my website done. I'm just working on the contents to get that ready, mostly text. I got the projects ready, but I'm planning. I've interviewed a couple of freelancers that are really successful at what they do, about how they take it.
I think if I'm going to do is I'm going to like work at it slowly so that maybe work for days on the agency and then one day freelance and then slowly switch towards that.
But of course, starting by working after work in the evening, which I don't mind. It's something that I love to do. I think the main thing is just to kind of plan it in, then just keep doing that because I think that that is the hardest part for people is to have that discipline to start doing that. I think I can do that quite easily, but that's essentially where it starts.
[00:33:17] Nice and what can people expect from your social media coming forward into 2019 and how you planning the posts?
Yeah, I have been thinking about this quite hard because currently I have the three steps on my Instagram, where I explain the process of what I'm doing, but the only problem that I have with the way that I approach these things is that I'm just showing the logo design.
[00:33:49] Well, really, it's never really just a logo that I'm doing. It's the whole process, the whole branding and that corporate identity. So I want to still be doing that process but not necessarily be tied to the three grid that I'm doing right now, but also posting different things where a certain logo is applied to other things so I can really show the full picture.
[00:34:18] I'm probably gonna not going to be as tied to that grid anymore. I am going to show that process but also I think a lot of other stuff because, if I'm going to do freelance branding, I want to do full branding projects and not just logo designs. So that's could show people that eventually.
[00:34:47] Yeah, and theres a lot to be said for showing people what you want to get back. I think we talked about last time, but if you just put out a logo, some people just can't expect a logo and it could attract different type of audience to someone who's wanting a full rebrand. So yeah, I'm definitely think about that myself and I think social media how easy is it to grow following, as you seem to have done that pretty well.
[00:35:10] Yeah. I mean I haven't posted in a long time. Which is really bad, but I've seen the growth on Instagram, you know going, it's still going up but not as fast as when I was still a lot more active.
Were you just creating stuff for Instagram or were you doing it for practice or doing it for actual clients, because I see a lot of people on Instagram just doing stuff for Instagram just for likes. How much have you done that in the past?
[00:35:44] It was a mix. I think it's about a third maybe a little bit less. That was like actual client work or concept for client work. But I was mostly just trying to get my creativity flow out there also just doing case studies or you know, making logos just to practice.
[00:36:13] So a lot of the work that I put online, like you said it's not commercial work. It was more to you know have Instagram content practice to put some stuff out there for people to shoot on as well. So I can learn some more. So it's really a mixture. I want to have more commercial stuff out there.
[00:36:35] Like I think it's always going to be a mixture or me.
I guess it’s great if you're practicing doing it, but there are people that get sometimes get caught up too much in likes. It's interesting just to know how much you were doing of. I’ve done something like that in the past especially just creating stuff for the sake of it.
[00:36:49] What sort of tips you have people going into a new social media enhanced agency life.
Well, I noticed that for social media It's really hard for people to get started especially girls in design. They feel less comfortable to start posting because they feel judged, but it's fine to feel judged, It's what you learn from it’s the whole reason why you should be posting these things and what you post doesn't have to be perfect yet. It can still be a work in progress. Just get your get your shit out there. I believe in that
If we look back at our old work, we always think that's bad. So, yeah I get out there.
Yea, even now I’ve not posted for so long. I look back now at my feed and there are some things that are in there that I'm like, how did I ever post this? How did this get so many likes because this is shit, really?
So what you're gonna do you're gonna take that off if you're going to keep it on there. What's the plan?
No, I'm good. I think it's also interesting to keep it on there, because when I get started again, and I have a very long feed and maybe in a couple years I can look back and people can see how fast I improve and what my improvements are.
[00:38:28] I think that's interesting. As well for me and other people to see. So I'm just going to leave it there.
That’s interesting as I would have done the opposite and taken it off. So that's good.
Any last advice and anything for young designers, any tips or anything that you want to give them if they’re coming into the design world. What’s your number one tip?
I think one big one is to get your things out there. It' is really important. I think that I wouldn't be sitting here working at that agency or doing what I do, if I didn’t put my stuff out there.
[00:39:10] So I think that that is really important. But mostly, which I think unfortunately is still done too much, is that when you're designing to not look at the concept or the result as if it’s looking cool enough, but also why you're doing it.
Also, if you're going into freelance, and you feel that websites like Fiverr or anything they ruin the market.
[00:39:46] It's not that, it's really more of an opportunity to improve yourself and get yourself to a whole new level, rather than they are ruining the market.
Really see it in a different way eventually. I think that's. I think it's kind of a rare mindset, but it's a very important mindset if you're going into freelance or agency life.
[00:40:12] Right, so seeing saying the meaning behind it rather than ‘oooh it looks pretty’.
Yeah, and then also not looking at the negative aspects around how design is viewed.
I think in Russia, for example you could literally just like buy a logo on the street for five dollars at a local print shop.
[00:40:40] For example, they are not eventually ruining the market. If you want to be graphic designer you you're only limited to you know, the limitations that you give to yourself. You have the internet. You have LinkedIn you have so many, you have Instagram you have so many opportunities. You don't have to be limited just your region and just clients around. You can literally do anything if you set your mind to it, and raise yourself to a higher level. You don't have to compete to the people on Fiverr and stuff.
I think it's an interesting time, because I think really branding itself, the concept of visual branding really took off since the seventies and I think now we're at a time where the majority of the people are starting to realise that it's important and not just that small portion of entrepreneurs.
[00:41:36] So I think that is pretty interesting. Absolutely. Awesome.
Thank you so much for going to podcast again. Hope to have you back again soon. Thank you. Where can people find you and say hello and for your work when it comes out?
@LisaJacobsDesign on Instagram
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